Hey everyone! In this episode I share the mic with Adrian Salamunovic, co-founder of CanvasPop, a service that lets you create gallery-quality canvas prints.
Tune in to hear Adrian discuss his career path as a serial entrepreneur, including DNA11 in which they turned DNA code into abstract wall-art (no two prints are alike!), how he started CanvasPop with just $35,000 and earned media, and the marketing tactics he’s used, such as putting the first 100 customers’ prints on a digital billboard in Times Square during the Christmas season as part of their launch campaign.
Download podcast transcript [PDF] here: How CanvasPop’s Genius Customer Acquisition Strategy Out-Innovated the Competition TRANSCRIPT
Time-Stamped Show Notes:
- [00:41]Before we begin, please leave a review and rating and subscribe to the Growth Everywhere Podcast!
- [01:14] Adrian is a “serial entrepreneur”; he’s never held a full-time job, as has been doing this since he was 16.
- [01:30] CanvasPop is one the web’s leading personalized wall-art companies. Print any picture from any source.
- [01:50] Brand-focused, direct-to-consumer, vertically integrated company.
- [02:17] DNA11 was started by Adrian and his best friend; they took DNA code and turned into abstract wall-art; no two prints are alike.
- [03:03] It became a $1 million company and it morphed from there.
- [03:58] DNA11 was started with $2,000. CanvasPop was started with $35,000.
- [05:11] They used technology to streamline the canvas-creating process and have amazing customer service.
- [05:33] Adrian is passionate about earned media.
- [05:42] Adrian believes CanvasPop was successful because of great PR.
- [06:25] He is self-taught when it comes to PR.
- [06:39] Think about what makes your company remarkable and align that question with something that is trending in the media.
- [07:25] There is something to be said about developing a relationship with a journalist or publications.
- [09:06] There has to be remarkability or a spin to capture a journalist’s attention; there are a number of angles to work to attract a journalist and their audience.
- [10:10] As part of a launch promotion, CanvasPop offered a deal to the first 100 people: print with CanvasPop and we’ll put it on a digital billboard in Times Square during the Christmas season (fifteen seconds per photo).
- [10:55] This worked to CanvasPop’s advantage, because Reuters was running a special deal: they were giving you a free picture on the board for every press release that you gave them.
- [11:18] The whole thing cost him about $10,000, which was significantly less than it would have been had Reuters not been running the deal.
- [11:53] They still use earned media as a big part of their PR strategy.
- [12:44] The bigger your company, the less earned media brings helps bring in a surge of customers.
- [13:44] CanvasPop was the first company to accept Instagram photos for printing.
- [14:15] This gave them some great publicity and they were the only company doing this, so they got a wave of business.
- [14:43] “The best artists steal.” Adrian thinks you should look to similar companies, see what works, and improve upon their service.
- [15:25] You want to “out-innovate” your competitors.
- [16:20] Whether you are growing too fast or not fast enough, there is always going to be some sort of struggle for your business.
- [16:35] Entrepreneurs should be expert problem-solvers.
- [17:12] Adrian has learned that focus, discipline, and consistency are boring; but the key to success.
- [17:52] Eric recalls that the X.AI CEO said something similar.
- [18:35] Do advisory work on the side, which may help you have perspective and give back to your primary business.
- [19:06] He doesn’t advocate working 14-hour days, but he acknowledges that there is a time at every startup where that may be necessary.
- [19:47] Three days per week, Adrian will try to fit in a workout.
- [20:09] Adrian likes to block out his time for different tasks (i.e. email, research, meetings)
- [20:30] He likes to be home by five at the latest.
- [20:56] You need to balance out your life.
- [21:05] He would tell his younger self that “it’s a marathon, not a sprint”.
- [21:25] Adrian feels as if he spent his 20s sprinting.
- [22:07] Adrian loves Pipedrive, a CRM system. He loves it, because it uses an interface similar to that of Trello.
- [22:51] He also uses MuckRack for PR purposes; it looks at what journalists are writing and tweeting about.
- [23:37] Adrian absolutely loves TypeForm, because it takes something painful and almost makes it enjoyable.
- [24:31] Adrian recommends the books, E-Myth and Play Bigger.
- [25:37] Adrian’s favorite podcasts at the moment is “Legends and Losers” and “99% Invisible”.
Resources From This Interview:
- Must-read books:
- Adrian on Clarity.fm
- Adrian on Twitter
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Full Transcript of The Episode
Eric: Got it.
Adrian: Built that to $1 million in revenue. And then took about $30,000, $35,000. Which is really nothing, as you know. And launched CanvasPop, which today is going on a eight figure business.
Eric: Got it. Okay. Great. So, I mean, how does it typically work? I mean, how do you make money off it? Do I just go to a site and I just put like a ... I mean, tell me how it works.
Adrian: Sure. I mean, it's really simple, and that's the idea of any great business model. It's frictionless, it's simple. You go to the site, you upload a file. Any file, it could be any photo, any image. And then we print it at virtually any size, as wall art. And we take in a lot of the friction. Like, you don't have to worry about, really too much about file size, or ratios, or any of that. Our people, our software, takes care of all the work. So we make it really easy for anyone to take any picture, and turn it into art. It's really that simple.
What we've done is we wrapped it around an awesome customer experience. And ultimately we're actually a technology company, at the end of the day, not really just a printing company. 'Cause we built a platform that allows to rout the orders intelligently to the closest printing center near you. We own those printing centers, or are partners with certain printing centers, but there's technology behind the scenes that streamlines the entire process. Wrapped with amazing customer service.
And that's how we differentiate there. Differentiated ourselves over the years.
Eric: Great. And you started. I mean, well, I mean there's something you did creative when it came to generating a ton of media impressions. Can you talk about that story?
Adrian: Yeah, I mean I'd love to talk about that. It's something that I'm really passionate about, is what we call earned media. And it's called earned media for a reason, 'cause you have to go out there and you have to hustle, and earn it. And I can safely say that the reason that we're able to start a multi-million dollar company with just a few thousand dollars, and scale it pretty much all the way to where we have today, is in great part due to P.R. And I believe that any company can get P.R.
Like, it doesn't matter what you sell, there's always a way to add angles to your company to make it interesting to the media, and to influencers, in a way that they'll pick it up and start evangelizing and writing about you. And sharing your story with the world, which then generates inbound links. It generates traffic. It generates SEO juice. And it kind of creates a vicious circle. So I'm really passionate about earned media.
Eric: Great. And so we actually talked about this before, but basically you were able to generate millions of media impressions for free. Can you talk about that?
Adrian: Yeah. Absolutely. The reality is, when I went into this company, I wasn't a journalist, I didn't have a background in writing. Or even a background in P.R. So I had to kind of teach myself some hacks, and some ways to get into the media. And so the first thing that I want people to think about is what makes your company unique. Why are you remarkable? It's really the question, "Who cares?" Right? And if you can answer that question and align that question with something that's trending in the media, for example, then all you have to do is go and pitch journalists that are interested in what you do.
And the reality is, people think it's hard to get into TechCrunch. We've been in it a dozen times. All right? We're just a printing company, but we've been in it a dozen times. People think it's hard to get in the New York Times. It's not. Journalists are out there, looking to cover your company. You just have to know how to pitch it to them.
Eric: Got it. Okay. So how, I mean, how did you guys get in TechCrunch? Let's just say, let's say you got in the first time, okay? I think a lot of people sometimes maybe they get lucky, but how do you get in at the 11th time?
Adrian: Yeah, so I mean there is something to be said about developing a relationship with a journalist, or set of journalists, or a publication. It does get easier. As you get press, more press comes. And it's easier to get coverage, right? But say for the first few times, maybe you wanna talk a little bit about the process, I'd be happy to walk you through my playbook.
Adrian: Okay. So let's just say you have a company, and we'll make, let's make up a company. It's a company that is like Uber but for snow removal. Okay? I'm Canadian, so I just came with a made up Canadian example, okay? And so you're like Uber but for removing snow from your driveway. Right? And so you press a button, a truck comes, picks up snow from your driveway, and cleans your driveway. Or if you wanna, it doesn't matter, it could be Uber for lawn care. Let's just say it's a service like that.
And you wanna get media for it. The first thing you wanna do, is do what's called a reverse media search. So, what I do is I go to Google News, and if your company was Uber for lawn care, let's just say. I would go and search every single article written about Uber, the car company, right? On Google News. And then I would go find all those articles, and hit every single journalist, and say, "Look, you wrote about Uber, so I know you're interested in this space. We're kind of like Uber, except that we do it for lawn care."
Right? So I call that reverse media search. You don't need an expensive database for that, you don't need a P.R. company to help you do that. But you do need to get your pitch right. And the trick of doing a proper pitch, is understanding angle and what makes your company unique. And that's how you get journalists.
Eric: Got it. And so there's always, I mean, there's always has to be some kind of spin on it in order to capture their attention, right?
Adrian: Yeah, there has to be some form of remarkability. And that remarkability could be your product, it could be a feature. It could be you, as the founder. You know, in your case, Eric, people really look up to you. You've created your own brand, right, with these podcasts and with all the stuff you do with Neil. You have your own brand, and so it could be the founder, it could be the product. It could be a charity that you're partnering with. It could be another company that you're partnering with.
You have to be able to identify what makes you unique and remarkable to the audience that the journalist is writing to. So their audience. And that's how you get their interest.
Eric: Got it. Makes sense. I wanna back up a second. I mean, go back into the early days, right? So you just started CanvasPop. How did you go about acquiring your first 1,000 customers?
Adrian: Yeah, that's a kind of another funny story. So one thing is, what I love about when you're starting a company, sometimes you're too naive to know what you shouldn't be doing. In other words, you're really, there's a lot of bravado, and you do crazy stuff. And actually I encourage entrepreneurs to try crazy stuff at the beginning, because it's the best way to get attention.
And so one of the things we did is we actually managed to, for the first 100 people that printed a canvas print, when we launched, we said, "Okay, print your print through us. We'll put your photo, whatever you're printing, we'll put it in the New York Times Square on the Reuters board. Which is a 30 foot, 40 foot high digital billboard. We'll put it up there for 15 seconds during Christmas. But just be our first 100 customers."
And so that created a huge influx of customers that wanted to be the first 100 customers, right? And we actually charged them for it. So it was, I think, $50. It wasn't a big fee, but we wanted to make sure that to have an opportunity to have your photo on the New York Times Square, and we'd send you a picture of it, by the way. So you'd have proof to show off to your friends.
And that's a little trick that we did, and we did a little loophole because what people didn't realize is that at the time, P.R. Newswire and Reuters was giving away a free picture for every press release that you would put up. And it was only $100 if I recall correctly, if you did a press release. So what I did is I purchased a press release for a few thousand dollars, and then I added 100 pictures to it for $100 bucks each. So it didn't cost me that much, right? The whole thing cost me maybe $10,000. But I bought out the billboard for the day, during Christmas.
And it was kind of a really cool play that people would have assumed we spent a lot more money on. So it was a little hack like that. We're coming up with these unique sort of, I don't want to call them loopholes, but remarkable stunts, if you will.
Adrian: That aren't that expensive, that will make you stand out.
Eric: No, that's great. I think when you first start out and you get a P.R., I call it a P.R. bump, like that. I mean, it's one of those things that can carry you into the future. So I think that's awesome.
Eric: So, let's go to now-a-days. I mean, what's one thing that you think you're doing unique when it comes to customer acquisition now-a-days?
Adrian: Well, earned is still a big part of us, right? The problem with earned and P.R., and by the way I put earned P.R. and partnerships under the same umbrella. In other words, there are activities that you need to go out there, identify targets. You need to hustle and convince those targets that there's value for them. Whether it's a journalist writing an article, or a partner that's gonna help you sell your products due to their audience, it's the same essential process, right?
So when I can say earned, earned is still a big part of our business. The issue with earned is as you scale $5, $8, $10 million, $20 million, it moves the needle less and less. Right? When you're a small start-up, you're less than $1 million in revenue, and you get featured on the Today Show, or featured in TechCrunch, your users, your downloads, your purchases are gonna spike. It's gonna be the best day of the week, the best day of the month, maybe even the best day of the year.
But as your company scales, it doesn't move the needle as much. So we have started transitioning, after all these years, into more paid channels, right? So Facebook's the obvious one, I know you're a big expert in that area. Our Facebook channels have been doing quite well. But I'm still focused on the earned side, which is the P.R. and the partnerships.
Eric: Got it. Love it. Yeah, I think there's something to be said about doing P.R. creatively and there's, a lot of people tend to just kind of go with the motion, load a bunch of emails into some outreach tool. But you tend to have a lot of ideas around it. I think we can talk about it all day. But I do wanna talk about something creative that I think you are doing right now, correct me if I'm wrong. Is there an Instagram integration happening with CanvasPop?
Adrian: Well, that happened a long time ago. So we were the first company. This is an example of a low lift project that got us a ton of press. So we knew, we were in mobile, we really knew mobile photography was coming. And we also as CanvasPop, one of the biggest differentiators was we accepted any resolution photo for enlargement. And that put us in a great position to be the first company to accept Instagram photos. So I had an actual opportunity to fly down to San Francisco, as Instagram was barely at three million users at the time. There was five or six employees, right?
And I got to meet with their head of customer service, employee number four, and show her the product. And she goes, "This is awesome. By the way, we're opening up an API in the next month, do you want early access?" I said, "Absolutely." So we were the first company. And we, that gave us a lot of press coverage to TechCrunch, The Verge, Mashable, many many others covered that. And it gave us an opportunity, probably six months of pure market share, where we were the only company doing it. And really helped us grow.
And it was a big deal for us. It got us a lot of new customers. But you can't ride something like that forever, you have to move on and figure out what's the next thing that you want to bolt onto.
Eric: So how do you keep coming up with these new creative ideas all the time?
Adrian: Well, I think creativity sometimes the best artists steal, right? And I'm not saying to copy. I'm not saying to flat out steal from people, but as marketers, we can look to larger companies, or companies we admire, and look at what they're doing right, and sort of copy those things. And so at the time, there was a photobook company that was doing Instagram integration. I saw that opportunity, and I said, "Well, they're doing it for photobooks, why don't we do the same thing for larger pictures?" And it worked, right?
So don't steal from your direct competitors, but borrow or remix from companies you admire. Because if it works for them, it might just work for you. So I look to a lot to companies I admire, I do look at the competitors, but not too closely, 'cause you don't wanna play a game of catch up all the time with your competitors. You wanna out innovate them. I read a lot of newsletters, I go to a lot of the tech forecasting and trend forecasting sites, and absorb as much information as I can.
And I go to a lot of conferences and talk to people smarter than me. So it's a combination of all these things. Sometimes a lightning strike or a lightning bolt goes off and I say, "All right, let's try this experiment."
Eric: Yeah. It makes total sense. I mean, that's why I love learning, reading, listening, whatever it is, 'cause then you're gonna draw inspiration out there, and then that's gonna give you new ideas. And so I think every idea out there is just you're building on something else from the past. So yeah, I don't think steal blatantly, but I think draw inspiration. I think that's a great way to think about it.
Adrian: Yeah, I agree. Totally.
Eric: Now what's, I mean with CanvasPop, obviously with all businesses, it's not always sunshine and flowers. What's one biggest struggle you faced while growing it?
Adrian: Well, I mean every day is a struggle, right? Anybody that tells you, "Oh yeah, business is great." It doesn't matter how much you're, if you're growing too fast, that causes struggle. If you're not growing fast enough, that causes struggle. There's always struggles. And I think we as entrepreneurs, and I think you'll agree with me on this, our job is to problem solve. Right?
Adrian: At the end day, co-founders, CEOs, leaders in companies, our job might as well be called Chiefs of Problem Solving, because every day is a new problem. Right? Whether it's for our clients, or for our employees, or for our company as a whole. And so every day is a struggle, to be very honest with you. But I enjoy it. And you have to enjoy it to be a good leader, right? For us, the biggest struggle's always, do you buckle down and focus, and double down on what's working? But accept maybe slower growth?
Or do you take risks and innovate, and create new channels, at the risk of alienating what's working already? Right? So there's sort of that balancing act, right? And I think I'm learning through time that focus, discipline and consistency, although boring for entrepreneurs like us who are dynamic start up people, is actually the way to grow and do business that's successful long term. Right? So there's a dichotomy that is kind of like one fighting against the other, as the best way to succeed.
And I wanted to hear your thoughts on this. What is the best way to succeed? Is it focus and double down, or is stand and cast a wider net? What do you think?
Eric: You know, it's interesting. I mean, earlier today we had the x.ai founder. I mean, he started a couple businesses. You yourself, you're a serial entrepreneur, and he said the same exact thing. It's not trying to do too many things at once as a younger entrepreneur. It's locking in on the things that actually matter. And it's basically, I mean, growing any kind of business to a good size, is you're getting a product market fit, or whatever service market fit, and you're just kind of repeating and process, process, process. And that's it.
I mean, that's business, right? But I think you and I, I think most entrepreneurs like the growing and starting things up, and that's why we try to do too many things. But ultimately that leads you to stagnating. That's how I feel.
Adrian: Yeah, I agree. So it's a balancing act. And I guess to the guys that are out there, guys and girls, who are out there building their businesses, and feel like they need a shiny object syndrome. I think one great way to work that out is just do a little advisory work on the side. Right? That way you get to kind of play in other fields, and learn from those other fields. But get back to your core business and double down, and focus.
Eric: Exactly. So. I mean, for you, how do you structure your day?
Adrian: So, my day. I mean, my days have changed over the years, right? Nine years ago I was working 12 hours a day, right? I was working 14 hours a day. And I'm not saying you should work 14 hours a day. I'm not advocating that. But there's a time and place when you're doing a start up, that you may not have a choice, depending where you're at. But you may have to work 14 hours a day. I no longer work 14 hours a day. So what I do, is I use my mornings. I wake up, not extremely early. I'm not a, I wish I was a 5 a.m. guy, I'm not. I'm more of an 8 a.m. guy.
But what I do, is I wake up and I don't rush out of bed. I absorb information, I catch up my news, I read a little bit. I like to wake up slowly. I don't eat breakfast. Actually, I'm fasting right now, so it's great.
Eric: Good call.
Adrian: Yeah, I'm not hungry at all. I'm not hungry in the morning anymore. Which is kind of interesting. And then I get to work. And I pull up to work, very well rested. Now sometimes on three days a week, I'll throw a workout in, in the morning, and then go to work. Or sometimes I'll work out at lunch, depending on how my energy levels are. And then I'll eat after that. Now, what I do is I block out my days. And Eric, I'm sure you're the same way. If you don't block out research time, it's never getting done. You're gonna get called into meetings, or you're gonna get stuck on phone calls.
So I actually block out time for stuff like research. I block out time for email in the morning, right? I just say, "Look, nobody bother me between 9 and 10, or 9 to 9:30. I'm checking email. Nobody bother me between 10 and 11, I'm actually researching." It might look like I'm just browsing the internet, but I'm actually researching. And then my afternoons, I use for business development, general meetings, meeting with my employees. Like, our head count's, company wide, is at 60 plus, my people.
But within my marketing team, there's always little huddles and stuff. So I like to freestyle my afternoons, and then I like to go to home at 5 o'clock. There's no, or even earlier if I can, if I get my stuff done. Because I used to think, "Oh man, I'm the last guy out of the building. It's 8 p.m. It's dark outside." But there's, you gotta balance life. It's a ... So one of your questions that you were gonna ask me is, and sorry if I'm rambling on, but I wanted to share this really important ...
Eric: No, you're good.
Adrian: I'm thinking, if I could talk to my 20 year old self, I'd say it's a marathon and not a sprint. You're gonna get there, you're gonna get all the money that you want. You're gonna get all the material things that you want. And hopefully all the spiritual things that you want, which is the next level. In a matter of time. So just enjoy the journey, and it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And I think I spent my 20s sprinting. Sprinting and sprinting. If you do that too much, you'll burn out.
I don't know how you feel about that.
Eric: No, I totally agree with that. I think, well I'm just coming into my 30s now, and I definitely feel the 20s were ... I mean, yeah. I mean, probably would be the same comment. Slow down, you'll eventually get there. I think everyone gets there, it's just you're at different chapters, and you're going through different paths. So I think you're 100% right on that.
Another question I wanted to ask you, I mean, CanvasPop, great business. Some people can certainly think of it as a tool. What's one new tool that you've added in the last year, that's added a lot of value for you? So it could be like Evernote or Dropbox?
Adrian: Oh, as a tool that we use in our back end systems? Like, more stuff that you don't see on the front end, right?
Eric: Could be anything.
Adrian: So I love Pipedrive. And I'll tell you how we use Pipedrive. And to say you love a CRM system is kind of crazy thing to say.
Eric: That's interesting.
Adrian: But I actually love Pipedrive. And I love Pipedrive because it uses a Trello-like interface. Do you use Pipedrive, Eric? Do you, have you seen it before?
Eric: We, yeah. So I've seen Pipedrive, we use Salesflare, which has the same kind of idea. You're moving people through different stages?
Adrian: That's right. It's visual. It's easy. It's frictionless. I like that. I kind of like things that are frictionless. Now, we use Pipedrive, 'cause we're not a need to be sales organization as much, as we are for the earned stuff, the partnerships and the P.R. We actually use Pipedrive to manage all those relationships through the various stages of relationship. So I absolutely am loving Pipedrive. I'm also using a company called Muck Rack for P.R. They've kind of helps you monitor journalist's tweets, and what they're writing about.
So it's a little bit of a new, I'd say it's a P.R. 2.0 tool. Instead of using past, or just past articles, it looks at what journalists are tweeting about, and what they're writing about. A combination of those things. And then lets you create really targeted media lists. So Muck Rack's good. Our team is constantly testing different multivariate testing tools. Different email tools. I know we're growing out of MailChimp, unfortunately, but I used to really love MailChimp. But it's only good, I think, to a certain size, and then unfortunately bigger eCommerce companies have to migrate away from it.
One of my favorite companies that I'm so hot on right now, is Typeform.
Eric: Why do people like it so much?
Adrian: Well, again, it comes down to simplicity. Right? Everything I've talked about, whether it's Pipedrive, whether it's Muck Rack, whether it's MailChimp. And now Typeform. It makes something that's usually painful, and makes it almost enjoyable. Right? And B2B apps can learn from that, right? The consumerization of these apps. So to me Typeform, you could take somebody who doesn't know a thing about coding, and you can create a conversational interface. Like, a beautiful conversational interface. Or a survey, if you want to call it that. In like, five seconds.
And it looks gorgeous. It works beautifully. And the information on the back end is equally impressive. So I am loving Typeform. I wish I could have invested in them. I just raised a bunch them up. They're an awesome company.
Eric: Awesome. Great. Just two more questions before we work towards wrapping up. What's one must read book you recommend to everyone?
Adrian: All right, this is a big one. For me, you know how every couple years you read a book, and then you just tell everybody about it?
Adrian: So like 10 years ago it was E-Myth for me, right? Like, E-Myth changed my life because E-Myth taught me how to work myself out of the business more. Right? Be less in the business and work on the business. So E-Myth was awesome. But 10 years later, my next book that I'm recommending is Play Bigger, by Christopher Lochhead.
Adrian: Lochhead's a awesome guy. He's a marketing guy from the Valley. Originally a Torontonian, he's Canadian. And he wrote a book called Play Bigger. And Play Bigger's about how do you become the category king in your space. Right? How do you become the category king in wall art? Or the category king of whatever app that you're developing. And it's a mindset, and a strategic way of thinking, more than anything else. And it will be the best $15 bucks, or whatever it costs you, you ever spent, if you're looking to really think big and play bigger. Awesome book.
Eric: Interesting. Great. And I think maybe this, is this the guy that started ... Well, I guess this leads into the next question. I mean, what is your favorite podcast right now?
Adrian: So, yeah. Similarly, I've been listening to Legends and Losers, which is Christopher's podcast. He's got great, great guests popping on there. Like, you'd be surprised at some of the great people that he brings on there. And what you can learn in those podcasts. So, that's pretty much what I'm mainly listening to. 99% Invisible is also awesome. I don't know if you, Eric did you ever listen to that one?
Eric: Yeah, great one. Design podcast.
Adrian: Right? Everybody knows about that one. But that one's more for entertainment. I'm liking Legends and Losers right now.
Eric: Great. I'll have to check that one out. So, Adrian. I mean, this has been great. What's the best way for people to find you online?
Adrian: Right now the best thing is probably hit me up, if you wanna talk to me, on Clarity.fm. Which is a platform, a awesome platform, where you can connect with us. So awesome entrepreneurs and get their advice. And so you go to Clarity.fm, and if you just look for me by name, you'll find me on there. I think I'm the number one guy on the platform right now. But there's, you'd be surprised at who you can connect with on there. And hit me up on Twitter as well.
Eric: Awesome. Adrian, thanks so much for doing this.
Adrian: Awesome, I really enjoyed it, man.
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