GE 166: Jared Fuller On How He Skyrocketed PandaDoc from $1M ARR to $5M ARR in a Year (5X Growth!) (podcast) With Jared Fuller

Jared Fuller PandaDoc

Hey everyone, today we have Jared Fuller, VP of Business Development at PandaDoc, the future of documents – where you can automate contracts, proposals, quotes, and electronic signatures.

In today’s show we’ll be talking about how they get 1,500 people to sign up each day (and became one of the fastest growing SaaS companies), what they do to get a more than 10% conversion rate from trial to paid customers, how Jared helped grow the company from $1M ARR to $5M ARR (a growth rate of almost 5x!), and why leaving JobHive was the hardest thing that Jared ever had to do.

Download podcast transcript [PDF] here: Jared Fuller on How He Skyrocketed PandaDoc from $1M to $5M ARR in a Year (5X Growth!) TRANSCRIPT

Episode highlights:

  • [02:32] – PandaDoc turns files into web apps and takes the pain out of documents, they also integrate with a CRM and customize the data and deliver it for an esignature
  • [3:19] – 6,000 companies are using PandaDoc and 1,500 people sign up a day
  • [04:23] – Custom templates that match your company, you create the document, it’s drag and drop, then attach a quote, send it for esign, and the client signs
  • [5:28] – They have grown about 5X in a year
  • [06:59] PandaDoc was an opportunity for Jared to grow a company that already had market fit
  • [10:10] – Being part of an established business gives Jared new opportunities with the growth of the business
  • [12:23] – Focus on the services your partners will be able to sell. Sales enablement – helping teams perform at a higher level.
  • [13:07] – Evaluate client needs and send them a proposal, provide more value than what is already out there. With PandaDoc the experience can be customized
  • [14:12] – Customer acquisition – SEO – rank for keywords that people use the tools for, template library – the documents people search for. Outbound marketing. Integration partnerships and co-marketing with joint webinars and blogs etc.
  • [18:06] – 40,000 sign ups a month and a more than 10% conversion rate to paid from trial customers
  • [18:45] – Leaving JobHive was the hardest thing that ever happened to Jared. Founder depression is real.
  • [20:26] – The Wait But Why Elon Musk article about how he would zoom in and zoom out took Jared out of this Founder depression
  • [22:27] – Invest more in yourself – personal development and education – mentorship – find someone who has done what you want to do better than you
  • [23:44] – Newsapps and curators to follow posts in the morning, Jared reads in the morning and listens to podcasts when he walks to work, content comes to him, and he has advisor calls

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Disclaimer: As with any digital marketing campaign, your individual results may vary.

Full Transcript of The Episode

Show transcript

Eric: So in short, the most important thing to think about and to focus on when you're starting a channel program is to focus on the services that your partners are going to need to sell in order to become successful.

Voiceover: Do you want to impact the world and still turn a profit? Then you're in the right place. Welcome to Growth Everywhere. This is the show where you'll find real conversations with real entrepreneurs. They'll share everything from their biggest struggle to the exact strategies they use on a daily basis. If you're ready for a value-packed interview, listen on. Here's your host, Eric Siu.

Eric: Before we jump into today's interview, if you guys could leave a review and a rating and also subscribe, as well, that would be a huge help to the podcast. If you actually enjoy the content and you'd like to hear more of it, please support us by leaving us a review and subscribe to the podcast, as well. Thanks so much.

All right, everybody. Today, we have my friend Jared Fuller, who's a VP of Business Development at PandaDoc. Jared, how's it going?

Jared: Great to chat again, Eric. Happy to be here. Going well.

Eric: Yeah. Good to hear. Thanks for being here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Jared: Yeah. Absolutely. Been in the startup game for about 10 years now. Trying to ... I think I'm right about at that 10,000 hour mark. Most of it's been related to sales and marketing. Founded a couple companies. Market Aces, which was a marketing and website development, kind of a creative agency. Took that to about 25 or so employees. We did a few million in revenue. Then I got into SaaS, and I was a co-founder and CEO of a company called Job Hive. Ran that for about 3 years. Had a decent run, almost took it all the way, but didn't quite. We were backed by great investors like Foundry Group, and got us to number 1 trending on Angel List. It was a fun ride, learned a lot. Now, helping PandaDoc scale out our strategic partnerships, integrations, and then our channel. Building a massively growing reseller program. That's a bit of me in the startup world, in a nutshell.

Eric: Awesome. Great. Tell us a little bit about PandaDoc. What does it do exactly?

Jared: So, documents suck. I don't think anyone thinks that documents are being done correctly. Think about it. The Microsoft Word format, PDF, it's been around for almost 30 years, so if you were going to go build a new website, a new app, imagine if you built that app on a gigantic XML file. Pretty terrible way to build anything. We think that's the same case for documents. We turn what used to be a file into a robust web app. We have different objects like templates, content library, and we can actually track statuses of documents and see who's opened it and checked out how long they've been on each page, and then we integrate tightly with systems of record, like a CRM. So in short, you can create a proposal from CRM, merge all the data, customize that document right in your web browser, and deliver it for e-signature. It's an all-in-one document platform and we like to call ourselves the "future of documents" and think that we figured out a

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better way than the standard bearers of this fun fun document world.

Eric: Great. How would you ... I mean, if you were to explain this, I guess, for people to wrap their head around this work, is there any success story you could speak to or a use case?

Jared: Yeah. We have around 6,000 companies actively using PandaDoc. We have about 1500 people signing up a day. We're one of the fastest growing SaaS companies I'm aware of. It's certainly in this space, and I think the success stories there speak for themselves. We have tons of big name logos from companies as large as H&R Block to the USGA, golf association, to big enterprise companies like Riverbed, to even cool startups like Datanyze or TaskRabbit, that are using our product to automate this document process because there is a better way. Lots of great case studies and testimonials and we actually have a great place on our site that's called resources where you can check out a bunch of those great case studies with some of those clients.

Eric: Got it. Let's just assume I ... Let's just assume it's a marketing agency and they need to get people to sign a proposal. Are you saying, basically, we can store the proposal template inside a PandaDoc, and then send that document to somebody else and they can go in there and e-sign from directly in there and it's basically stored?

Jared: Yeah. Absolutely. There's never any file. You don't have to go to Microsoft Word or Google Docs or a PDF editor or InDesign. You have your PandaDoc templates. They're customized via CSS to match the styles and brand of your company. If you're a marketing agency and you want your proposals to wow people, and let's say you use something like HubSpot CRM. Since you're an agency, you probably use HubSpot. You can create that doc right from HubSpot CRM, customize it ... So let's say you want to drag and drop a case study, the target persona or buyer that you're selling to, into that document ... You can actually do really fast document assembly and maybe drag in a video for a specific service that you might be selling. You can customize that document really quickly with these reusable snippets of content that normally didn't have a home in a file, and then attach a quote, so you can build out that quote in PandaDoc, and then send it for e-sign. Then your client can sign off on that proposal. You have a legally valid e-signed proposal/contract, and you're onto your next deal.

Eric: Awesome. Sounds good. Sounds like a big time saver for sure. How are revenues going at the company right now?

Jared: Yeah. Right now, we're right about 5 million ARR. When I joined last year, we were about 1 million ARR, so we've grown about 5X in about a year. We're not quite at 5, but we're just about to break it. We've got a big bottle of champagne in the office. It's staring us all down saying, "Hit that number. Hit that number."

Eric: Awesome. Well, I hope that happens soon and I'll be out there to join you.

Jared: Awesome.

Eric: Cool. All right. I want to talk about something ... I mean, I think, in the beginning when

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you talked about how your ... You had an agency in the past and then you had Job Hive as well. Switching from ... Going from entrepreneur, going back to the startup world, some people are like, "How do you transition back from entrepreneur and becoming an executive at a company?" How did that feel and why did you make that decision?

Jared: You know, at first it felt really weird. I'm not going to lie about that. After Job Hive ... It was my second company that we've kind of taken it from zero to some semblance of scale and operation, but I'd never taken a company from 1 million or 2 million to 30 million. That roller coaster ride after ... I know how to hack things. I know how to build sales from nothing, get marketing leads in from nothing, but really scaling and optimizing and growing leadership and hiring dozens and dozens of people to basically automate people and processes ... I hadn't done that before, and I really had to ask myself, did I want to start a new company from scratch or did I want to know, in my next venture, because I'm sure I will start another business, what it's like to go from zero to scale and have a true exit under my belt.

I didn't want to make the same mistakes again and I knew the first half of the journey really well and I didn't know the second half. I took a deep hard look in the mirror, ate a big piece of humble pie, and went, I think I want to join a company and help lead a specific division. PandaDoc reached out to me. I'm good friends with Mikita, the CEO. Met him at a conference a few years back and we'd stayed in touch. Almost integrated Job Hive and PandaDoc, and when he heard I departed Job Hive, he said, "You know, I want you to head our partnerships division." So build a reseller program from nothing, build our integration partnerships from a small semblance of scale to a massive revenue generating machine for the company. I got to have my own startup within the startup. I got to have ownership, own budget, and full control, but learn in that process, learn a whole different side of the business because PandaDoc already had an extreme product market fit.

In the last test case for me ... What really put me over the edge was the product. No matter what you can do in sales, no matter what you can do in marketing, you have to have an amazing product that wows people. I've been a customer of Mikita's for about 5, 6 years. At my agency, I used their product Quote Roller. I used that to send out all of our quotes. Then they released PandaDoc as their new product. That's where I really fell in love with the product. When he asked me to join, it wasn't that I was looking for a bunch of different companies, because I wasn't, but I loved the product so much and thought I could have such a big impact to take a swing at the PDF and become the PDF killer that I said, "You know what. If there was an opportunity that I'd evaluate and a company that I feel I could call my own, I think this is probably one of the only companies I would've joined." It's kind of a unique set of circumstances and I'm really happy I did it. At first, it was hard to conceptualize. Can I do this? I feel like I'm pretty unhire-able. I hadn't been hired before. I'd always done my own thing, but it's been a great success. We all love each other and we have one big happy Panda family here.

Eric: Yeah. That's great. You know what. I've had situations where ... in the past where opportunities would come up and it's like, do I think I could really do it, but at the end of the day, it's not really about switching from entrepreneur to employee or whatever,

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which a lot of entrepreneurs will be like, "Oh, he's going to go get a job," or whatever, almost like it's derogatory, but to me, it's all about the growth opportunity at the end of the day, and it sounds like that's what you were pursuing. Right?

Jared: Yeah. For instance, I didn't know what a reseller program was ... like building a value-added reseller program. This is something that most startup execs, if they're just going from startup to startup, would never actually explore. Why? Well, because you're focused on building zero to 1 million, zero to 2 million. What we've been able to do here at PandaDoc is ... I have Pete Caputa, who's the VP of sales for HubSpot. Pete joined our board of advisors. I went out and said, "Hey, Pete. I'm tasked with building a partner program. I need some expertise on something I've never done." Luckily, I got him to join our board. What we did from there is he mentored me and showed me the way in how HubSpot took their channel program from zero to almost 100 million in revenue. Pete created that from nothing and I have that same opportunity.

Over the past 6 months, our channel program accounted for less than 1 percent of PandaDoc's revenue. As of this month, it accounts for over 13 percent. That's crazy growth. I mean, that's more growth than I've done even in my own startups in 6 months with a program that didn't exist prior to me taking it on. That, to me, was a learning experience that I wouldn't have even got if I was out trying to start my own business again. It's a super valuable part of our revenue. We have over a hundred partners now that are expanding and growing PandaDoc globally. That's growing every day.

Eric: Love it. Love it. Love it. Talk about the value-added reseller program just for a second. What's what tip you would provide to people? One actually thing you would provide to people who are trying to get something like that started?

Jared: You wouldn't believe how much you need to invest into two things. A lot of partner programs try to focus on generating sales out of the gate. What you have to do is put yourself in those person's shoes. Our typical VAR profile is a service-based business, so they sell work by the hour, and they resell things like HubSpot or Sales Force or Microsoft Dynamics. They typically resell CRM, but they don't make their money off software, and that's where you have to take a step back. These resellers aren't interested in necessarily selling your product. They're more interested in servicing it.

There's three interests here. There's PandaDoc's interests. There's my partners' interests. Then there's my partners' clients' interests. You really have to focus on your partners' interests. Helping them build a better service business. Showing them how they can add, not just software to their portfolio, but a new suite of productized services. For instance, most of these inbound agencies that are now reselling PandaDoc, they know it's important that they have to get into sales enablement. Why? They often bring a company a lot of new leads, but they don't have any insight or control over the sales process at the bottom of the funnel.

What we tell these agencies is, "Look. Here's a big opportunity to start offering with your inbound marketing service, a sales enablement service." You have to focus that conversation around helping them bring this new service to market, and your software

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just so happens to power it. Yes, they might get a small revenue percentage of the software sale, but where they really make their money is when they have a monthly sales enablement retainer or a sales enablement package that they can sell. In short, the most important thing to think about and to focus on when you're starting a channel program is to focus on the services that your partners are going to need to sell in order to become successful.

Eric: Makes sense. I remember us talking about sales enablement when we were eating lunch. Just for the audience, for those that don't know, what exactly is sales enablement?

Jared: It's the processes, the tools, and content that help sales reps and sales teams perform at a higher level. You could say sales enablement is something like a CRM, but that's more on the operations side. It's help to keep things clean and reportable and forecastable, but that doesn't make a rep more effective at closing a deal, it's just better pipeline and management. To us, sales enablement is something that could help a rep do more business than they were the month before by providing value in the sales cycle.

For instance, with PandaDoc, you talk to a client, you evaluate their needs, and after that call, you probably need to send them some collateral so you can put together a custom proposal that says, "Here's how we've helped companies like you." The difference is, sales reps today are selling to people that have already researched your product or company on the website. If you can't provide more value than what's already out there on the web, why do you have a job? What are you doing?

With PandaDoc, we make it very easy for you to customize that collateral for that buyer's experience to make them feel like, "Hey, I just got the information that I needed, that I wanted, summarized and synthesized for me after this call, and I can have something that's very referenceable and Jared was very helpful as a result of that. Thank you, Jared, for helping me evaluate this decision." That's sales enablement to us, is helping reps deliver value during the sales cycle.

Eric: Got it. Okay. Love it. That's a growing trend. I think it's only going to continue to get bigger like we both agreed on. Going into ... I want to talk about customer acquisition for a second. You talked about value-added reseller programs working for you. What's the most effective thing working for you guys in terms of customer acquisition today?

Jared: We have a number of different initiatives and that's kind of a cool thing. We have several different machines that are bringing value to PandaDoc month over month. I'll talk about a couple of them. We're speaking to the Growth Everywhere audience, Eric, that you've built up and so growth hacks are always a cool thing. One of them is SEO. We have a really big SEO play and it's brought us to where we are. We're kind of outgrowing this SEO hack, so to speak. It was something that brought us a lot of business.

What we did was, we looked at all the e-signature, quoting, proposal keywords and went, "Yikes. There's no way we'll ever rank for that." Mikita, to his credit, came up with

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a great idea that we could be able to actually not just try to rank for the keywords for the tools, but rank for the keywords that people use those tools for. For instance, business proposal template. I'm probably going to need to get that e-signed or generate a quote from in that, so we could capture that audience without going after the keywords that were already so competitive.

We have a vast template library that brings us quite a bit of traffic month over month. That's one of the growth hacks that took us to where we were is our template library of documents that people search for. No one else was really doing that, so that was something unique to us, pretty good growth hack, and helped us with our SEO play. Because we're a document app, makes perfect sense to have a library of templates exposed and searchable and indexable by the web. Now we're starting to do outbound, going after some larger mid-market deals.

Not really a growth hack. Pretty standard, just good opps, good process, a good understanding of what it takes to build a great outbound team. One of the other things is our integration partnerships and co-marketing. That one's a little bit more of a hack as well, in so far as, we might partner with someone like PipeDrive or HubSpot and build an integration, but we can both do co-marketing together.

We can host joint webinars talking about a sales enablement solution. We can do blog swaps. We can do joint e-mail campaigns. We can do in-app notifications to users talking about how they should hook up this integration if they have this use case. Our strategic partnerships with our integrations, it accounts for around 30 percent of all documents that are sent are sent through an integration partner.

This has provided a ton of value and it's a good acquisition channel for PandaDoc as well that most people don't have. There's kind of 3 things that I think PandaDoc has in terms of acquisition that a lot of people don't know about. The first being a solid SEO play that brings us a decent amount of inbound traffic. The second being strategic partnerships with companies that are bigger than us, like HubSpot. We're their number one CRM integration partner now. Also, a channeled program at a pretty young stage, less than 5 million in revenue, that's growing pretty steadily. We found out the things that worked and have been scaling the ones that we know do.

Eric: Interesting. Yeah. Sounds like all of these are just relevant at the end of the day. Going back to the SEO play that you talked about for a second. When people are searching ... For example, let's just use business template. If they're searching business template, they land on the page. Is the idea that they click on the template and then you guys require an opt-in or something like that? How does that work?

Jared: They're able to view the template and if they want to get that template, it prompts them to sign up for a trial account. They can come in and go, "Hmm. This is interesting. What are all these tokens in here for replaceable data? Oh, I can get this e-signed, too? Oh, I can do a quote here?" It's a bit of an education. Because when they're searching for this template, what do you think they're looking for? They're probably looking for a Microsoft Word document or a Google Doc template or a PDF, and then we educate

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them. Well, here's a PandaDoc template and you can just edit this live, right in your browser, right now. Customize it for your company. You don't need to download any software. Try out a trial. See if it works for you.

Eric: Interesting. Okay. What's the conversion rate on that?

Jared: Conversion rate to trial ... Here's some numbers. I can go somewhat down the funnel without getting too deep. We have around 40,000 sign-ups per month right now. That's where we're at. We have around 400,000 uniques. You can kind of do the math there. It's around 10% conversion from checking out PandaDoc and signing up for a trial.

Eric: Got it. Would you say 10% of the trials convert into paid?

Jared: We're more than that. We're more than 10% than convert into paid. I won't go into the exact numbers there. That's where I have to keep my mouth shut a little bit, but we're better than that.

Eric: Awesome. Fantastic. Yeah. I think the standard number's around 10%, so you guys are doing better. That's great. Okay. Well, I want to get a little deep here. Can you tell me about one big thing, positive or negative, that has impacted your life dramatically?

Jared: Oh, man. Yeah. Definitely. I think that was leaving Job Hive. That was the hardest thing that's ever happened to me and it hit me in ways that tested me that I never knew possible. Founder depression is very very real, and I never thought that was a real thing while I was going through the journey. I would never consider myself a depressed person, and I never actually felt sad afterwards, but things like locking up ...

For instance, going through my day to day motion and then all of a sudden looking at the clock and I've been sitting in front of my computer for an hour and I went, "I haven't done anything. What am I doing?" And questioning these things and going, "How did this go wrong?" It definitely changed me as a person, and I think for the better. It was a lesson that took several months for me to get through, and I really would say 6 months before I emerged out the other side able to process and it make me a better, I think, founder, friend, employee, husband to my wife even. It took me to get through that process.

It was something that shook me in ways I didn't know I could be shook, and I'd gone through some crazy stuff on that ride. I mean, putting everything I had into the company. My first startup, eating Ramen noodles out of a coffee pot because we couldn't afford a pot to boil the Ramen in. There were some tough times and I never realized how much of a toll that can take on you until after that journey, that 7, 8 year journey of being in startups and just doing the grind everyday to when it stopped, how much that had impacted me. In short, I know how to work hard. I know how to put in more hours than the next guy. I know how to hack things, but taking care of yourself and having a more global perspective ... You know, the thing that I think took me out of it was actually ... I'm sure there's lots of people that have read this article and have read this guy. Wait But Why. Have you heard of, that blog?

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Eric: Yeah. Yeah. Great blog.

Jared: I read that Elon Musk post. It's a pretty infamous post now. Whenever he talked about how Elon zoomed in and zoomed out in terms of taking perspective on things, being able to go very narrow, and then zoom out, not just in terms of decision, but time ... past, present, future ... how those things look with everything, really reshaped me and kick-started me going, "Okay. If I zoom out ... like if I zoom in right now things look very different than when I zoom out." Six months, everything's going to be different, so I think that was the biggest impact. Leaving Job Hive and then I think I got shook out of it when I read that Elon Musk post. It was like, "Okay. There's a new way to look at this world and get the most out of my experiences that I'm having now and have an eye set on the future while remembering the past."

Eric: Yeah. I was just going to ask you, "How do you get over something like that?" But you just gave the answer, so we'll drop that in a link for sure. If anybody's going through, I think, any type of depression at all right now, I think that's something to read through and it'll give you a little perspective.

Jared: Yeah. Definitely. That was the biggest thing. I wouldn't say that I was depressed in the way that ... lot of people have these things. Just so much happened. Dozens of people lost their jobs and investors lost money and I lost mine and my day to day life that I'd been so committed to. Everything just changed. It impacted me in a way where I just didn't know it was possible. The closest thing I can say is, it was depression, not that I was sad, but that I couldn't move. I couldn't do anything. I want to say shocked, I guess, that the ride was over. We're in a much better place now. I would encourage that ... That's a great place to read if you're stuck currently.

Eric: Great to hear that you've recovered from that fully. Yeah. I think ... Would love to ... We talked about the dark times, but we don't need to get deep into that here. Moving onto the next question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to your 20 year old self?

Jared: There's a lot of big trends that I was right on the cusp of that we just missed. Part of me wants to say, "You should've invested everything into BitCoin." We built one of the first BitCoin plug-ins, bought a ton of BitCoin, and then devested it because we're like, "Oh, this thing isn't going to take off." Part of me wants to say, "Hey, you should've just taken the silver bullet," but life advice is probably a lot better, and I would've said, "Invest more in yourself and less in your ventures." What I mean by that is personal development, education. I read a lot. I continue to read a lot, but it's like every time I invest more in myself, I get more out of it in my ventures. Mentorship, certainly. I would've invested more ... I'd say, "Invest more in mentorship. Find someone who's done exactly what you've done before better than you and is willing to take the time. Listen. Take notes. When you're about to have a phone call with them, have an agenda prepped with exactly what you're going to talk about." For instance, that's what I do with Pete. I have an agenda every time we have a phone call. We debrief, and it's changed the way that I do business for a lot of different things. I would say invest in yourself more than you invest in your ventures and then your ventures will pay off as a

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Eric: I love it. What does your learning cadence look like? How often are you reading books, articles? I guess, what's the breakdown of all that?

Jared: I wouldn't say that there's a cadence. I don't have that perfected in terms of, here's my process. The cool thing about content these days is you have so many aggregators that can pull content to you, so I use news apps, etc. where I'm following everything from Jason Lemkin and [inaudible 00:23:57] for the latest thing on sales or I'm pulling in the latest post from Pete or whatever. Mostly in the mornings, now that I think about, first thing I do when I wake up is I read for probably 30 minutes to 45 minutes. That's how I get my brain activated. That's actually been my typical cadence. Then podcasts, too. Right? Podcasts are great. I have about a 30 minute walk to work and I'm listening to a different podcast everyday. That content just kind of comes to me. I find new things and I'm consuming a lot. Then I have regular advisor calls as well, so every other week.

Eric: Awesome. Great. Yeah. I think all these are ... I think any type of learning is a hack. Podcasts definitely help expedite, especially when you go on 2 to 3X speed. Books are a huge bargain, too, but the whole podcast and the fact that all of this information is available for free, I think is just like cheating in real life and I'm all for that as long as it's ethical.

Jared: Of course.

Eric: Yep.

Jared: Yeah. I'm thinking about starting my own as well.

Eric: You should.

Jared: Yeah. We're thinking about calling it Sales and Scotch and focusing on talking to salespeople and helping salespeople through their day, so I'll keep you posted if we decide to move forward with it.

Eric: I love it. I love it. I hope you guys are drinking scotch while you're doing it, too.

Jared: Of course. We're going to evaluate a different kind, so it's a little bit of both.

Eric: Awesome. What's one must read book you'd recommend to everyone?

Jared: Leadership and Self-Deception. Leadership and Self-Deception's about a concept of being in the box. In short, I'll use the example from the book that I love. It's 3 AM. Your baby cries. You roll over and you look at your significant other and you look at the baby, but your first thought when that baby cried was, "I need to take care of the baby," but when you look at your significant other, you go, "I'm so tired. Doesn't he or she know how hard I work? Why aren't they getting up? Don't they hear the baby crying? I had such a hard day at work."

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There's that moment of self-betrayal or being in the box, where your first instinct was, go pick up the baby to all of a sudden, you're blaming this person that's literally asleep, that has done nothing wrong. That applies in management in more ways than one. The problem that's worthwhile fixing, it's amazing how fast you'll turn that switch off and go to it's this person's fault without even recognizing you've done it. You can do that to your spouse. You can do that in your personal life. You can do that in your professional life. That book definitely changes that mindset.

It's the only ... I've read lots of books many times, like mostly classical philosophy, but this is the only business book that I've read more than once. I think I've read this one probably 4 times and listened to it on audio book with my wife on multiple drives across the Southwest. I've probably consumed this book in its entirety 7 or 8 times. It's story-based, so it's not a dense read. It takes you through a story of a fictional company and how a management exec is training a new employee on how to not be in the box. Great book.

Eric: That is deep. I just added it to my Amazon one-click, so I just purchased it. Appreciate the recommendation. We'll drop that into show notes, but Jared, this has been great. What's the best way for people to find you online?

Jared: Yeah. Hit me up on Twitter @FullerFreedom, so FullerFreedom, like my last name. Happy to interact with anyone on Twitter. Probably the best way to catch me and we can tweet.

Eric: Awesome. Great. Jared, thanks so much for doing this.

Jared: All right. Sounds great. Thanks, Eric, for having me.

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